STRUGGLE SESSION: Double Dippers and No Labels

...Thanks again to everyone who took a moment to respond and to everyone who shared their own stories. I was very touched. Says NoCuteName… This is second time in very recent memory that Dan has run a letter and a phone call from the same person in two formats in one week. Sometimes people who record a question for the Lovecast send the same question in via email for the column. And since not everyone who listens to the podcast reads the column and vice-versa, I have allowed for a little “double dipping” here and there. My apologies to any Savage Love/Savage Lovecast completists who find this annoying! Says BiDanFan… SWITCH: Oh, no, it’s Lesbian Sheep Syndrome meets #MeToo. Seconding Dan: Someone’s gotta make the move. Fancying someone isn’t disrespectful, nor is letting them know you’re interested, so long as you treat them like a person throughout and graciously accept no for an answer. Go for it — and report back! “This is such a perfect example of LSS,” MahNaMahNa added, “I kept waiting for Dan to say the words!” Full disclosure: I’d never heard of Lesbian Sheep Syndrome — I mean, I’m familiar with the dynamic, i.e. the ways in which women are socialized when it comes to dating and fucking (a lady doesn’t make the first approach, a lady doesn’t initiate sex, a lady is never the horny one, etc.) and how this socialization presents a particular challenge for lesbians. I alluded to that in my response. But I’d never heard it called “Lesbian Sheep Syndrome” until I read BiDanFan’s comment. (LSS: “a scenario where two women [who are] interested in each other both wait for the other to make the first move. This mutual hesitation often results in missed romantic opportunities.”) I’m always learning from my readers and listeners! Says Thingamajig… Dan may well be right in his advice to SWITCH, but I think people who are comfortable making moves under uncertainty don’t really appreciate how hard it is for those of us who aren’t. We are wired differently. What you are asking is akin to asking someone with ADHD to “just focus.” It’s not just a matter of willpower. I realize what I’m asking SWITCH to do is hard, Thing, because I had to force myself to do it — or start doing it — when I was SWITCH’s age. I’m a shy and introverted person (I am!) and I couldn’t bring myself to “make moves under uncertainty” until I was in my mid-twenties. Everything I urge shy people like me to do when making that first move — use your words, acknowledge the awkward, invite the “no” — are the strategies, approaches, copes, etc., that I discovered through painful trial and error. Alex has some great advice for SWITCH. No one can seem to defend — or even an explain — non-hierarchical polyamory without backing into a description of what sounds like hierarchy to me.  JJ72 gives it a go. Jonathan calls bullshit. RobinRedBreasts makes the case that it’s label that make relationships hierarchical… At this point it does feel like Dan is willfully misunderstanding non-hierarchical poly. It’s the distinction between having a defined hierarchy and not having one. That might sound obvious but clearly it’s missed. There is a big difference between being in concurrent relationships where you have defined one as more important than the other one and assigned labels to confirm and enforce that, versus being in relationships where you can acknowledge that you may currently have a “stronger” relationship with one person but you’re not going to codify it and try to keep it that way. So… Non-hierarchical relationships are non-hierarchical so long as nothing has a label on it and no one knows exactly where they stand at any given moment. Which means… there is a hierarchy but it’s invisible — like the Holy Spirit — and you can be kicked up or down that hierarchy at the whim of your partner or partners? And if you have any questions or objections… then you’re the problem? Is that how non-hierarchical polyamory works? Look, if my husband of 25 years had come to me a month after meeting his BF and said, “I would like to acknowledge that I currently have a stronger relationship with Tom than I do with you. I realize it’s Christmas and everything, but you’re on your own. Things could change by next week, however, and our relationship — yours and mine — could the be the stronger one on New Years Eve, so please keep that night open.” If Terry had said that to me a month after meeting Tom, I would’ve told him he was having an NRE-fueled psychotic break and that our unlabeled whatever-it-was would be over if his ass wasn’t sitting on the couch in front of our tree on Christmas morning. In summary: a can of chicken fucking noodle soup without a label is still a can of chicken fucking noodle soup. (BiDanFan jumps into the thread and NoCuteName walks us through the holiday plans of a poly quad attempting to make non-hierarchical polyamory work. Can it be done? Spoiler: Not it can’t.) Okay! Here’s this week’s letter for everyone to have a whack at! See if you can you guess why I choose it… I’m a 28-year-old pansexual polyamorous person. I have a primary partner who is a man that lives with me and another partner who is a woman that does not live with me. I’m calling about a recent situation that came up with my partner who is a woman and my closest friend, another woman who also identifies as polyamorous. Both my partner and friend identify as solo poly. My friend is someone who I have been friends with for seven years. We have had sex in the past in a group setting, over two years ago, but we are not partners and our relationship is best suited to being close friends. We have been in a group setting about three times in the past and that has been my friend’s first and only sexual experience with a woman. Since then, she has often spoken about being bisexual and mainly attracted to women but has never made the effort to meet, go on dates, or put herself out there with women. She has a propensity for sad boys who cling to her and she takes care of because she feels they need her help. This has always been the case and always a tactic by these guys to wear her down to sleep with them. This has happened more than three times so I’ve recognized this pattern. I have an issue with these guys because every time we hang out she would invite them along. I spoke with her about this for the first time and she got very angry. We got through it but nothing changed. Recently, I introduced her to my other partner who is a woman. I noticed that she was very interested in her. I have spoken about my partner to my friend before, our shared kink interests, etc. My friend has never been someone who is super friendly upon meeting new people, just socially awkward. She was so animated and interested in my partner that it made me instantly angry. Even going so far to ask for me to put them in contact by sharing her phone number. I feel a sense of frustration toward this friend because I’ve felt she has talked to down to me in the past about certain kink topics, my interests, even being queer. I can’t help but feel annoyed because I’ve been the only female sexual experience she has had and I don’t want to be the conduit of someone’s bisexual experiences. My partner is solo poly and meets people out in the world and is active in her own dating life. I think I would feel differently if my friend was also someone who would go out and meet people and make her own connections. What would you do in the situation? Would you talk to your friend about this? Or is it too sensitive and not a problem yet? Or is it already a problem because I’m annoyed? Pansexual Annoyed Now Got some advice for PAN and — deep breath — their partner who is a man and their other partner who is a woman and their friend who is bisexual and usually has a thing for sad boys but suddenly has a thing for PAN’s other partner who is a woman? (Whew!) Drop it in the comments!