Ace Space Case

...like me feel like we are not welcome in the gay community. And to answer the obvious question: I go to gay bars for many of the same reasons allosexual gay men go to gay bars: to socialize and feel safe and to meet potential romantic (not sexual) partners. I also go because gay hookup apps are terrible for everyone, but they’re especially terrible for asexual gay men. I feel like there should be one night a week where gay bars are safe spaces for asexual gay men. It doesn’t feel like asking people to remain clothed and refrain from groping each other one night a week is too much to ask if it makes a marginalized group within our own community feel welcome. I am curious what you think of my proposal and whether this is an idea that you would get behind. Gay Ace Gay Space  “I’m a 28-year-old gay man, just like GAGS, but I’m not asexual,” said Jonathan, a regular commenter at Savage.Love who I’ve tapped to speak for all allosexual gay men everywhere. “I’m an enthusiastic gay bar, club, and partygoer. I went to Town in DC for the shirtless twinks and twunks and go to the Eagle in NYC for the hot leather guys in jockstraps. We go out because of the dancing, kissing, groping, grinding, hot bartenders, and go-go boys. We like it this way! If we wanted dubious drinks in a nonsexual environment, we’d go to Applebee’s.” Jonathan argues — and I, another allosexual gay man, happen to agree with him — that gay men clumped up in urban areas to create spaces where we could be ourselves. When the first gayborhoods began to appear (or began to enter public consciousness), those spaces were pretty much limited to bars (sexually charged) and bathhouses (extremely sexually charged). But as more gay men and other queer people came out and moved in, lots of other kinds of spaces in gayborhoods — less sexually charged spaces — became places where we could be ourselves, e.g., cafes, restaurants, bookstores, gyms, sidewalks, city halls, etc., etc., etc. “GAGS should try gay sports leagues, gyms, meetup groups, book clubs, youth mentorship programs, supper clubs — all of those have the nonsexual vibe he wants,” Jonathan said. “And if there isn’t a scene he likes where he lives, he should create one. My city didn’t use to have a fisting club or an ABDL night but now, thanks to friends, it does. GAGS should focus on cultivating the environments he desires instead of asking other gay men to censor ourselves. We aren’t interested in being demure. It also wouldn’t be profitable for the venues.” Kevin Kauer, who co-owns and curates Massive, a bar in Seattle for the whole LGBTQIA+ community, agreed with Jonathan on the unprofitable-for-venues point. “I strive to create a space that’s safe and welcoming for all,” Kauer said, “but GAGS proposal sounds like is an unprofitable flip of the fun switch to off. While certainly fun for some, what he describes is just not the essence of a large queer nightclub. Maybe GAGS could try a house party?” You may have a hard time filling a house party. While there are roughly forty million men in the United States between the ages of 21 and 40 — age-appropriate-ish potential romantic partners for a 28-year-old gay man — only two percent of those men are gay (800,000), only one percent of gay men are asexual (8000), and only a small percentage of asexuals are sex-repulsed asexuals (as opposed to sex-positive, sex-neutral, sex-negative. etc.). While you’re not limited to dating or partnering with other asexuals — because of course you aren’t — you’re asking bars owners to set one night a week aside exclusively for sex-repulsed asexual guys and there aren’t enough guys like you to fill a living room, GAGS, much less a club. Okay, since I don’t want to be accused of stacking the deck — or ganging up on you — by only quoting allosexuals, GAGS, I reached out to Cody Daigle-Orians, the author, educator, and asexuality advocate behind “Ace Dad Advice,” a social media-based asexuality education project. “The gay male community can make ace men feel like shit,” said Daigle-Orians. “Ace men meet a brick wall of invalidation, dismissal, and being rendered invisible in the gay male community. And there’s absolutely room — and a real need — for allosexual gay men to catch up on the range of ways one can inhabit gayness, including gay ace men, and to be gentler, more supportive, and to build solidarity with men whose gayness looks different from theirs.” So, what does Daigle-Orians think of your modest proposal: one night a week when the owners of gay bars order bartenders to keep their pants on, lock go-go boys in their beer coolers, and police patrons to make sure they’re keeping their lips and hips to themselves? “I can’t agree with GAGS’ suggestion,” said Daigle-Orians. “Gay bars have a long history, of which sex is a part. They’re sexually charged spaces and that’s okay. The freedom to express your Big Gay Sexuality on the dance floor at the gay bar is one I’m glad allo gay men have. It’s something they should have.” Just like Jonathan, GAGS, Daigle-Orians thought you might be looking for love — and community — in all the wrong places. “There are other ways to find gay social connection,” said Daigle-Orians. “There are gay book clubs, bowling leagues, gaming groups, rugby leagues, softball. The choice isn’t ‘gay bar or isolation,’ as GAGS frames it, because ’gay spaces’ aren’t only bars, parties, or clubs. Just as there are multiples ways to be gay, there are multiple ways to socialize with those gays. So, I would encourage GAGS to broaden his ideas of where gay community can be found and built. It’s more likely they’ll find the like-minded friends and possible romantic partners they’re seeking in places other than the gay bar, anyway. Leave the backroom to the allos.” P.S. Even though you’re unlikely to find a partner in a gay bar, GAGS, you and other asexuals who want romantic relationships shouldn’t despair of ever finding a partner. Cody Daigle-Orians — who identifies as queer, ace, and agender — has three: his husband of ten years (met online), his other partner of three years (met online), and a platonic partner (his husband’s other romantic partner). I’m confident you can find the right guy or guys too, GAGS, but you’re not going to find them in a gay bar. (And “you should put your shirt on” is a terrible pickup line.) P.P.S. Congrats to everyone out there who got the “hips or lips” reference. P.P.P.S. & Update: I just realized that I didn’t answer the question GAGS put to me: Is this idea — campaigning to pressure gay bars to host weekly “Pants On/Hands Off” nights — something I would get behind? And the answer is no. In fact, the very first thing I ever wrote for publication was a piece for my school newspaper defending gay men who were being publicly sexual — dancing shirtless, making out, grinding on the dance floor — in the one and only gay bar in our college town. A straight wannabe conservative columnist for the paper was so shocked by what she saw at the one-and-only gay bar in Champaign, Illinois, that she wrote a piece saying gay people didn’t deserve civil rights if we couldn’t behave ourselves… in gay bars. (The piece is in a file at home — I’ll post a PDF when I’m back in Seattle.) Follow Cody Daigle-Orians on Instagram @AceDadAdvice and learn more about his work and order his books — I Am Ace and Ace and Aro — at his website. Follow Kevin Kauer on Instagram @kk_nark. Follow Massive on Instagram @massive_club. Full disclosure: my husband — who can you follow on Instagram @disappearing_tm — hosts a monthly fetish night at Massive. I’m a 38-year-old gay male. I recently got back on dating apps, and I’ve been chatting with other gays online. I’m not unattractive and I get a fair amount of hits when I post pictures. To my surprise, I’ve accidentally connected emotionally with a few guys who quickly expressed an interest in exploring something long-term with me. The problem is that I was diagnosed with terminal cancer years ago and not given long to live. I’ve made a miraculous recovery, but I still have cancer, and I’m told it’s still terminal. I could pass in weeks, months, or after another couple of years. I haven’t lied to any of the men I’ve been chatting with, but I haven’t been entirely forthcoming with them either. It’s day two of chatting with these guys and now I’m in some situationships. I don’t know what to do. I want to feel normal, but I don’t want to string these guys along. Please advise. Cancer Announcement Now Could End Relationships First, CANCER, I’m so sorry about your diagnoses — but given that it’s been years since you were given months to live, I’m hoping you’ve gotten a second, third, and fourth medical opinion. Cases of spontaneous remission are rare when it comes to cancer but they have happened, CANCER, and people have been misdiagnosed with cancer. I’m sure it’s already occurred to you to explore both possibilities — and ones that haven’t occurred to me — but on the off chance you haven’t, you might wanna. Second, CANCER, about the men you’ve been chatting with for two days — torso pics that went from “sup” to “let’s explore something long-term” in forty-eight little hours — they’re bullshitting you. And if you think you’re in a situationship or any other kind of ‘ationship with any these men, CANCER, you’re bullshitting yourself. Forgive me for being blunt… but you’ve gotten worse news and survived… and I don’t wanna waste what little time you have left beating around the bush. Dating sites and hookup apps are crawling with fakes and flakes, CANCER, and while swapping text messages with a stranger can be fun and sometimes it feels like we’re catching feelings for someone we haven’t actually met in person yet, when someone you’ve never met claims they wanna make explore a long-term commitment… that’s a red flag. That person either isn’t who they say they are (and they’re about to hit you up for the money they need to buy a plane ticket to come and meet you) or they are who they say they are (and they’ve just outed themselves as too emotionally immature and/or too emotionally manipulative to risk meeting, much less dating). In that pile of responses you’ve gotten, CANCER, there are guys who are open to chatting but who aren’t trying to rush things — chat with them, block the others. Got problems? Yes, you do! Email your question for the column to [email protected]! Or record your question for the Savage Lovecast at savage.love/askdan! 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