Okay, let’s struuuuuuggle…
NRTGW is married to a woman who is done with PIV — it’s become too painful — and she wasn’t into letting him getting it elsewhere: “Recently, in therapy, I proposed opening things up in a variety of ways,” wrote NRTGW, “all of which she refused to do, saying it would cause her shame and that she’s too afraid it would lead to me falling for someone else.” Says Thingamajig…
I don’t think it changes anything for NRTGW, but it strikes me that this is an answer to Dan’s frequent question of “Why would a person who is no longer interested in sex care if their partner gets some on the side?” I’m sure it’s not the only answer, and I think it’s still entire fair to ask if one partner unilaterally ending the other’s sex life is justifiable, but I think it’s important to underline that the sex-cutter-offer has feelings that need to be accounted for too.
Agreed: the feelings of the sex-cutter-offer need to be taken into account. And, much to NRTGW’s credit, that’s exactly what he appears to be doing: he didn’t ask for my permission to cheat on his wife and/or what he could say that might get her to reconsider opening up the relationship. All he wanted from me — all he asked me about — was to be pointed at the best sex toys for simulating vaginal intercourse. He seems fully prepared to honor the monogamous commitment he made to his wife… even if it means never having PIV sex again.
As for the fear that your partner might leave you for someone else if they’re allowed to seek any form of sex outside the relationship… that’s a rational fear, of course, but in this case it’s one that needs to be weighed against your partner leaving you if that’s the only way can ever have PIV sex again.
NoCuteName had some great thoughts about NRTGW…
Dan’s first two paragraphs in his response to NRTGW were great, but his suggestions regarding toys seems to miss the mark. I’ve known a bunch of women like NRTGW’s wife; many of them feel done with sex altogether, and they’re not interested in “fixing” that, as they don’t view it as a problem in need of a solution. It’s not just about the physical discomfort, either: some of them have lost all sexual desire for their partner, which they have rounded up to having lost all sexual desire altogether (this is the origin of the stereotypical frigid wife who no longer wants sex–except when she starts having an affair with another man).
There’s a lot more to NoCuteName’s response — it’s a smart analysis of the likely issues, and makes a convincing case for the hopelessness of the situation NRTGW finds himself in.
Basically, even if Mrs. NRTGW is still interested in sex — and that’s a big if — Mrs. NRTGW probably isn’t interested in having sex with Mr. NRTGW ever again… and her very own Magic Wand isn’t gonna change that. Essentially, NoCuteName dings me for going rogue, i.e. for suggesting that there might be a way back for Mr. and Mrs. NRTGW. Again, that wasn’t NRTGW’s question — he wanted sex toys recommendations for himself, not an action plan for reviving what little sex there was in his marriage. Perhaps I should’ve stuck to sex toy recs for Mr. NRTGW, per NoCuteName, but seems to me that one last conversation with the wife — and one that centers her pleasure, not his dissatisfaction — could make a positive difference for both of them.
As for wives who thinks they’re libidos have collapsed — “frigid” women, aka women who think they suffer from hypoactive sexual desire disorder — only to see their libidos come roaring back once their marriages have collapsed (and they’re free, finally, to fuck someone else)… once sex no longer bores them… that’s actually a thing happens, and we’ve discussed that phenomenon on previous shows. So, while prioritizing sexual compatibility may be the single most important thing two people can do at the start of a (presumptively) sexually-exclusive romantic relationship, committing to fighting boredom — a mutual pledge to keep growing and exploring and trying new things together over the life of a relationship (particularly if you’re a cis woman or in a relationship with a cis woman) — is definitely first runner-up.
Last week we were discussing one form tolyamory can take — mutually retaliatory infidelities that are mutually tolerated — BiDanFan isn’t a fan:
I agree that mutual cheating may be egalitarian but isn’t polyamory, as polyamory is a form of ETHICAL non-monogamy, and cheating isn’t ethical, even if your partner did it first. That said, if both parties know and accept the cheating is happening and accept that as the price of admission for getting some themselves, isn’t that basically a DADT where they didn’t tell each other not to ask or tell? Gah, why can’t people human up and just be honest!
I can understand why some people choose not to be honest — and not just the cheaters. (And remember: “The victim of the affair is not always the victim of the marriage.“) Sometimes the person being cheated on chooses to let a cheater think they’re getting away with it — sometimes the Cheated isn’t interested in hammering out a retroactive and perhaps mutual (and ethically non-monogamous!) DADT agreement with a Cheater — because the Cheated worries that the Cheater will become less discreet if they know the Cheated on is 1. aware of their cheating and 2. not willing — or, more distressingly, not able — to end the relationship over the Cheater’s cheating. Some people would rather be very discreetly cheated on than be left and/or shamed by open cheating. (Once again for the record: I don’t think this is ideal! It’s not ethical! It’s not the best practice! And it’s the cheater who who should feel shame, not the cheated on!)
Says Coyote Den about that anti-furries-in-schools bill in Texas that I talked about at the top of this week’s Lovecast…
That FURRIES bill (TX HB 4814) is going to go absolutely nowhere. One author, no sponsors, won’t make it out of or likely even into committee. The governor will never see it. Weird right wingers panic and introduce these bills all the time after they hear the same rumors the rest of us dismissed months or years ago. Anyone else remember the one in (I forgot what state) that would have furry students removed from schools by animal control?
I don’t remember the one about animal control hauling kids who identify as cats or dogs out of classrooms — but whoever introduced that legislation clearly doesn’t understand how affirming being taken to the pound would be for kids who identify as stray cats and dogs. And speaking of weird right wingers introducing bullshit legislation that’s going nowhere, Minnesota State Sen. Justin Eichorn and three of colleagues introduced legislation last week that would officially classify Trump Derangement Syndrome” (TDS) as a mental illness in the state of Minnesota. Later that same day — LATER THAT SAME DAY — the “family values” Republican was arrested for trying to fuck a minor in a prostitution sting.
CHEATS asked if it was possible to forgive her “straight” husband for cheating on her with three different trans women. Says Pentatonic…
CHEATS, there’s no reason to put straight in quotes — “Is it possible to forgive my ‘straight’ husband for cheating on me with trans women?” — as trans women are women, and men who are only attracted to women (including trans women) are straight.
CHEATS may have good reason to put straight in quotes. Not because sleeping with trans women makes her husband not straight, but because her husband — someone she believed to be straight when she married him (because that’s what he told her) — literally just came out to her bisexual: “He justified cheating because we were no longer intimate, and he thought I’d never accept that he was bisexual.”
And while trans women are women and men — cis and otherwise — who are exclusively attracted to women — cis and otherwise — are allowed to identify as straight, they’re under no obligation to do so. If Mr. CHEATS feels his attraction to trans women means he’s bisexual, he’s allowed to identify as bisexual — I mean, in a world where sluts can identify as ace and women with male partners can identify as dykes, Mr. CHEATS can identify as bisexual. And for all we know the bi label feels right because although Mr. CHEATS only cheated with trans women, he’s come to realize he’s attracted to men too, something his profile on Scruff, a gay hookup app for guys who lean bearish, would seem to BEAR out. (Credit: Katherine M!)
Like Cinderellaafter40 says…
You can get into a battle about the language a LW/character in a letter uses, or you can try to solve the problem, but chastising someone for mis-labeling themselves isn’t really helpful (and doesn’t really follow my understanding of the SL ethos of acceptance and education). The husband describes himself as bisexual, implying that he is phalophile, but perhaps more comfortable with WOMEN who have penises.
Zooming out for a second…
A straight man who dates a trans woman is in a queer relationship… which means a straight man who has sex with a trans woman is having queer sex… but a straight man with a trans girlfriend or wife somehow isn’t queer himself. I’ll allow it — not that my allowance is required — but I do wanna flag the logical inconsistencies.
Many years ago, I asked the great Kate Bornstein — on behalf of a reader who was asking for himself — if straight guys who “intentionally” had sex with non-op trans women were not actually straight. Kate and I discussed the question in language commonly used at the time, language we used playfully and affectionately, language that Kate did not find personally offensive, but language I don’t think either of us would use now. I liked Kate’s answer then and I like it still. So, in the interest of platforming important trans voices, which I’ve been doing for decades (this column is from 1999!), and re-upping a very smart take from Kate Bornstein, I’m going to risk linking my question and Kate’s answer…
“No, ‘intentionally’ having sex with a ‘chick with a dick’ doesn’t make you gay,” said Kate Bornstein, a male-to-female transsexual and author of the terrific book Gender Outlaw: On Men, Women, and the Rest of Us and, more recently, My Gender Workbook: How to Become a Real Man, a Real Woman, the Real You, or Something Else Entirely. “It means he has a leaning toward people who have a mix going on, gender-wise, and he leans toward a very specific mix. It might make him a transhag or a transfag, but not a gay man.”
So, what is a guy who’s into chicks with dicks?
“He might be a queer het man,” said Kate Bornstein. “That’s a good category for straight men who want to explore their options. That’s what queer is all about: it allows room for exploration of desire and identity. If this man is attracted to a chick with a dick, does it make him a gay man? No. Does it make him queer? Yes. Is he any less het? No. Am I speaking in contradictions? Yes.”
Okay, here’s this week’s letter that isn’t going to make it into the column… because it’s way, way, way too long. It’s also a real journey…
There was a guy named “Cosmo” who had a crush on me in university. I never gave it a shot with him, primarily because I was in a relationship with someone else at the time. I broke up with the guy I was dating in my last year and spent time coping with that breakup. After university, I never saw Cosmo again until we reconnected briefly years later when Facebook came out. He eventually moved to California with a girl he was dating, and they got married. Time went on, and I never really thought about him after that.
I’m now married and have a young child with my husband. Right before our child turned five, my husband put on Top Gun, and my son fell in love with it. We ended up watching it almost every day for over a year. There’s a scene where Maverick pursues a woman by singing “You’ve Lost That Lovin’ Feeling.” When I saw that scene, it reminded me of Cosmo and his friends singing that song to me once after class. At the time, I had no clue what they were doing — I was shy and reserved. I felt intimidated by them too; it seemed like they were all just these perfect guys.
About nine months into our Top Gun marathon, I saw that Cosmo had posted pictures from a family vacation and noticed he seemed separated from his wife. I reached out, and we had a friendly exchange. I told him how I had finally seen the movie. We each acknowledged that we were attracted to each other and agreed to try being friends. He started sending me pictures of himself, his kids, and sharing what he was up to. At one point, he even asked why we couldn’t work as a couple. During that time, I started catching feelings. We shared our thoughts on life and family. I mentioned that I believe family is your most important team, and I think that bothered him. I’m pretty sure he was reconsidering his relationship with his ex, whom I’m 90% sure had an affair. Suddenly, the tone of his emails changed. The whole exchange got weird. I probably said things I didn’t fully mean and, looking back now, I’m embarrassed I said at all, but I was in an emotional state.
Anyway, Cosmo said he needed to slow down with the emails because I was still figuring things out with my husband, and he was dating someone else. Everything started becoming a blur. I wasn’t mad about him dating someone else, but I felt blindsided and hurt that he didn’t mention it sooner because I had been so upfront about everything I was feeling and going through. At the time, I had no clue he was in a relationship.
Then, Cosmo mentioned that his ex-wife was jealous of the woman he was dating. Of course, I started paying attention to his profile. He has no pictures of her, but I did notice some posts he liked, which took me to her profile, which was very polished and almost too curated. She mentioned going to Ivy League schools and had pictures from an elaborate trip she took with Cosmo more than a year prior. A few weeks after I made that comment about family being your most important team, she started posting photos from their hotel room — probably in an effort to get under his ex-wife’s skin. I have a feeling she had no clue her boyfriend was also talking to me.
Am I wrong to be bothered by this? I feel so blindsided. I also feel like it was a hit at me in some ways because I wasn’t as accomplished professionally. But I don’t feel like a slouch. In fact, I think I was naturally much better looking than her — sorry if that’s rude to say. Also, I saw she had a $2 million dollar mortgage with her ex-husband, which I found so strange. I bet I have a higher net worth than her; I just don’t flash my money around the way she does.
Can you please give me a guy’s perspective on this situation?
Also, what should I say if I ever run into Cosmo or his friend, both of whom live in the same town I’m visiting right now. Too add to the plot, in one of his first responses to me Cosmo mentioned that he might move to the area where I live because the cost of living was so high were he was located. I’m guessing he’ll never move now, because his GF she was born and raised in California and it seems like her whole family is there. I’m doubtful she would want to move to Minnesota now that she’s in her 60s. What would you do?
Facebook Romance And Upsetting Details
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